Keziah Burgess
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DNA VERDICT - We are all Hales

10/21/2006

6 Comments

 
The final DNA 37 marker tests are in. The results are all but 100% sure; Armstead’s father was definitely from the Hale surname.

Our Burgess DNA group leader says “We just received the 37-marker segment results of Ron’s Y-chromosome test, and it matches 36 out of 37 with Randolph and William’s numbers, and 35 out of 37 with Jaime’s. This isn’t a common set of markers generally, so I have to think that all you folks have a common male ancestor.”  ” The coincidence is simply too great to be accidental. More than likely, one of the Hale males was Ron’s ancestor.” “This is a significant cluster of DNA matches. My experience tells me it’s a valid one. If the number set was more common, I would immediately question any possible connection, in the absence of hard evidence–but these are UNCOMMON numbers, folks, with a tested Haplogroup of I1b (from Ron).”

The closest.

  • Randolph Hale has traced his line to the Nicholas Hale line, a well documented line going back to Baltimore in the 1600’s. The Hales became land and real estate developers. Decendents settled many western areas into the 1800’s. One of these settlements was in Bedford (Franklin) County, VA. Called Hales Crossing on the Staunton River, just five miles from where Keziah lived with the Nichols family.
  • The other is William Chilcote. Not as much is known about his line, but this is a surprise to him. We will try to crack more of this mystery.


As I interpret the charts on the Family DNA charts, this means that Armstead’s line has a 90% to 95% probability that we are related at 8 to 12 generations, but a 95% to 99% probability at over 14 generations.

I am the 6th generation from Armstead’s father. This is about an 80% probability. It is possible that Armstead’s father was not himself a Hale by surname, so we may really know who he was, but Hales surnames were in the vicenty so we can speculate about who some candidates may be, subjects for future posts.

6 Comments
Jeff Hale
7/23/2015 10:27:17 am

I never did get you the data I'd collected about this. But this conclusion I think is false. I'm descended from Nicholas Jr's older brother George and the Nicholas Haile Jr. line does not match Y dna with us (Heale line descended from George), but you do match Chilcotes. Do your research honestly and you will find that those same Chilcotes in Bedford lived in Baltimore and went to the same church as Nicholas Haile's family. They migrated with the Hailes to Bedford. I wouldn't normally say anything, but I think the Burgess's need to at least examine the evidence. I had a giant Word document with all this in it and it is somewhere, but my computer died back when and I'm not sure where it is. But, this stuff is not difficult to find out anyway. Do your homework and try to be open minded. Sure, I could be wrong, but I don't think you are all Hales. I think you and the Haile's are all Chilcotes. I hope no offense is taken. But, don't you want to know the truth?

Jeff Hale

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Jeff Hale
7/23/2015 11:29:51 pm

Just a follow-up. I found the data I had researched and sent some of it to Eric Burgess. To be thorough; one other possibility is that Chilcote and/or Haas could be Haile's as well. Then in that case, we still would have the question of why my haplogroup doesn't match the Haile's. I think answers may come down to knowing whether Chilcote matches other Chilcotes. Does anyone know? Has anyone followed up with that original match?

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Ron Burgess link
8/4/2015 05:26:51 am

Hi Jeff,
I have relied on the expert understanding of Michael Burgess, who as the head of the Burgess DNA group, (now deceased), had no vested interest in this case.

Please also see my post after doing a 67 marker test. "SO WHO IS ARMSTEAD'S FATHER?"

What has happened, is that I have exact 67 marker matches with just 7 people. These include 6 Hales, and 1 Hass. This does not prove that my branch is from Nicholas's line necessarily, because to my knowledge we don't have his (or George's) DNA.
What we do have are current people who have traditional genealogy work, and several suggest that their families go back to Nicholas. I have checked out at lease one line and am convinced that this is true.
But even then, it is based on work which can have mistakes or some generations without solid certification.

I would love more clues to follow, such as George's DNA or family group to compare to Nicholas'. So if you have it let's review it to see what we can find.

The Chilcote line by the way, is a short line ending with no history just two generations ago. I have little doubt that the Chilcote line is part of the Hale line as well.

Regarding the haplotype, much confusion exists due the the naming protocol changes, I find it infuriatingly confusing. However, among my direct matches, all are the same haplotype, I-P37.

Reply
Jeff Hale
8/4/2015 07:23:21 am

Hi Ron,
I was wondering if you all were going to take the 67 or 111 since I find 37 to be too few markers to be really conclusive. I have never found a Chilcote sp? dna project. Have you? That is one thing I would want to know. Does Dr. Chilcote match any other Chilcote dna? I found a tree on yseach.org that has Chilcott and the name morphed into Silket. Unfortunately that was just an ancestor in their gedcom. How about Haas? Seems odd that there is no Chilcote dna project. If you all find that neither Haas nor Chilcote ever match others of that surname and assuming that others take Y dna tests some day, then I think you're probably correct that they are Haile's or related line. I'm wondering how you know that the Chilcote line that you match has no history. Seems there are little to no Chilcote dna to compare to. You say you have little doubt that the Chilcote line is part of the Hale line. What leads you to have nearly no doubt ? Have you found a Chilcote dna project with multiple families tested in order to compare? I think until that occurs, I don't see how you can be reasonably sure.
But, you may end up being right though. Maybe Dr. Chilcote is also a Haile. As far as my line of Heale's; the question of why we don't match some who are of the Nicholas Haile Jr. line remains. We are R-M269 and I agree that the re-naming is maddening. What I do find is that we match about 2/3 Scottish and about 1/3 Irish, English and other. A famous early biographer William S Speer wrote a book about prominent Tennesseans. That same author corresponded with Abraham Lincoln and I believe wrote a bio on him. He wrote of my gggg grandfather Philip Hale, who was the first to drop the spelling Heale for Hale. He said that Philip was of Scottish origin. We had always thought that was a mistake because he married Catherine Douglas who was definitely Scottish. But after checking the pre-surname Y dna matches to my Hale line, I think it is at least possible that Philip knew that he was Scotch.
http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/13330776/person/-86505164/media/1?pgnum=1&pg=0&pgpl=pid%7cpgNum

Dennis Dickerson link
11/7/2019 12:15:38 pm

My G Grandfather Albert Dickerson was adopted in Tompkinsville KY when Solomon Dickerson married Sarah Jenkins. Albert was 5, Sarah was 35 and Solomon was at least 80. Sarah's mother a Nothing and Solomon lived in Maryland at the source of Rock Creek and not far from the Baltimore Hales and Maryland Burgess's.. My DNA has turned out to match various Hales, FTDNA Kit # 133713. I do not DNA match children of Solomon's first wife Mary. Sarah told family history that Albert was her's by Solomon but that is not true. I am left with two questions, is Albert adopted both by Sarah and Solomon? I found it intriguing that Armstead Burgess moved his mother, wife and brothers to KY in 1835 the same year Albert was born.

Reply
Dennis Dickerson link
11/7/2019 05:14:41 pm

I have a typo on Sarah's mothers name it should read Nodding.

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    Ron Burgess

    A marketer, writer, and small business consultant. This blog was inspired during my genealogy work and the story of Kehiah Burgess of Kentucky. 

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